Lärmschutz, Innovation und Bahn: Wie die DB Bahnbau Gruppe neue Wege geht

Julien: Mobility is the biggest noise-causing factor. First Road traffic followed by rail traffic. The challenges are complex and Multi-layered. How does the german railway deal with it? Today, my guest Benno Hacker . Benno is team manager, acoustics at DB one of the daughter companies of the Deutsche Bahn.

Julien: A short disclaimer. The communication department of the Deutsche Bahn asked to clarify. As a result, our guest works for the DB Bahnbaugruppe. It is a 100 % subsidiary of the Deutsche Bahn, but independent and exclusively in construction and renovation projects around the railway tracks.

Julien: Hello Benno I am very that you are here.

Benno: Hello Julien greetings, I'm also happy to be here

Julien: When I complexity, I mean the huge network that you are How many kilometers you have to keep and optimize

Benno: It depends on who you asking question to. Do you the Deutsche Bahn as a or do you the train building group, the company I'm We have Germany one of the largest rail networks in Europe with over 33,000 km that can the Deutsche Bahn or to wait and up with We as a train building group are only part of it, a daughter of the company that is with topic of infrastructure. as a role of a construction company. We infrastructure service providers, we support the expansion and maintenance of the infrastructure and develop innovative products to the infrastructure more robust, more and modern.

Julien: And not only in Germany. Or only in Germany.

Benno: We strong on Germany. The infrastructure in Germany is in a state of It is not a secret that is worth We the Bahnbau Group were in the past. We various projects abroad. We are currently on the German market to our capacities available here in the Federal Republic of Germany

Julien: Let's continue right but maybe first of all for our listeners and listeners, please introduce yourself.

Benno: Yes, very much. I am Benno Hacker. I work for the DB Baunberg Group and I the area of noise protection systems. We develop innovative products for noise protection, which mainly focused on the topic of social compatibility, safety or cost and efficiency increase.

Julien: And how many employees are involved process? Generally, in the DB band building group and maybe also in the acoustic

Benno: At DB Bahnbaugruppe we are about 4,000 employees. We are Europe's largest train building company. And in the acoustics we have about 8 employees who are active in different fields. So on the one hand the topic of product development and noise protection systems, but on the other hand also employees who with the implementation of projects. in the acoustic field, construction of noise protection and so on.

Julien: Maybe a few words about you personally. Why did you this area? What you here?

Benno: The decision was made for so to speak. My first at the group was to with a developer and manufacturer of a then innovative thermal protection system. And then to the market management of the system. And so I got into the topic of I protection in the infrastructure, I up I the know-how, what is needed to systems permissible for use in the rail infrastructure, but also to make so that the economy is taken account, but also the scalability and the feasibility. And I also or different other areas in I as a project manager. not only in the of noise protection, but also other areas. I lot of BIM. But I have always true or have always a focus on noise protection and then, yes, because of a very innovative product development, more on the topic of again, so that I now have my professional activity almost completely on the topic of noise protection and everything to do art.

Julien: means you are an engineer but not an acoustician. the point of

Benno: That's right. I'm not an acoustician, but an engineer who deals primarily with the topic of The topic of acoustics is in my area in collaboration with relevant experts. We work closely together with external partners or internal partners, in the DB-concern. We have a large expert network of people who valuable knowledge and deep knowledge, which is exceeded. We look at our projects to put the right partners to the goal we

Julien: Before we question, a serious question. DB, is it Deutsche Bahn or Dezibel for you?

Benno: It depends on what context you ask. DB means German the context I just used and not DCB.

Julien: But I think that everyday life it has to often. Back to the serious questions. I said in our intro that road traffic, at its peak. That means that are many complaints in Germany, but everywhere in Europe it is the same problem. Are there many complaints that come to you? How do you these complaints? How do you this problem? And how do you it?

Benno: We as the train building group have with topic of about learning from the population. These other areas in the DB Group that are confronted with Primarily it is the DB Infra-Gio, which is owner of the infrastructure, which is also the of the projects that implemented. That means that we don't so many contact points as a train building group. What I can say, is that for us the legal emissions limits. So it is not about the amount of complaints, whether noise protection is built or not, but we as DB, as Deutsche Bahn, build noise protection to the legal limits.

Julien: Mm-hmm. Okay, so what are the biggest challenges for you and the biggest burdens? Because this is probably decided nationwide, what these boundary values are. But we know in the acoustics field, it different What is the biggest challenge to these boundaries?

Benno: To the boundaries in place is not necessarily the challenge. There are different solutions with which one can limit The biggest challenge is, among other to the acceptance for large projects within society. People want to protected However... the people don't to 6 meters high closed walls that provide shade, that off the view axes, that the urban image. So that's always a back and forth, or a polarization within society. Some want noise protection as much as possible, others want as little influence on the urban image. The best thing is that people don't noise and no protection walls and they to noise protection measures. But doesn't and it's a big challenge for the DB-corporate because noise protection measures are the most common reason why large projects are because there so many disputes within society and also demands against large projects. That's for us as Bahnburg Group it's a big challenge.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: to noise protection measures so that they socially acceptable, they accepted, that attractive. So noise efficiently, but the same time provide an attractive image of the landscape, environment and the protection measures.

Julien: Let's go into the of the different environments of noise. When you of noise from the railways as a consumer, you of first, and I by train, first of the noise in the train. The noise of rail traffic affects the for the residents, the fourth around the but also for the travelers directly in the As a DB train building group, the trains themselves are not your area, but the rails themselves also acoustically for the quality and comfort of the travel. ⁓ How do you that? Can you explain how? the noise is being and what you are for

Benno: I can't about noise protection in the train. It is that an acoustic of the train is in the development. The absorption can increased The material of the material can also the absorption of the sound in the interior of the train. These are areas where we as a train construction group That means I can't any further into questions.

Julien: Then we'll go deeper into the topic of power. I like to say that such construction sites are not only the effect of the construction sites, that is, for the residents around but also for the construction workers. other words, a construction site, a train tracks is something very special. You said 4,000 workers who probably work directly on the tracks. Can you how this works? A construction site directly on the tracks?

Benno: Basically, work safety is a core issue or one of most issues that accompanies us protecting our employees. And noise is something that must be considered Especially in the infrastructure area, especially in the rail infrastructure area, have very large and loud machines in use. in the construction of works. very strong noise emissions are carried, which the employees have A problem we have is that employees don't just to be protected but they also to and the dangers in environment. They have to to employees and also warning signals. This is a challenge we have to employees from noise, but the time to ensure that that the dangers that from the environment can continue be in order to themselves and their lives. We not in my area, but in another area of the DB-Bahnbohr Group. But there we are very actively with the topic of we this problem that keeps employees from noise, but the same time also the dangers. Of course, we think that always to the noise emission limit values by the employees with appropriate protective equipment.

Julien: The noise is versatile and it also different frequencies. lower frequencies are worse to stop, to protect. Can you about this spectrum because you say noise limits? Okay, but the Lemgrenzen in decibel is ultimately a very one-sided view in the acoustics and also on spectrums lower frequencies to higher frequencies. You spoke of warning signals, example. These are different frequencies from the contact with the train. You a little more details there. And I'm particularly in the train traffic, not only between the... ICS, regional trains or freight trains, freight transport. I can imagine that the acoustics will be very different. How do you this you? How do you on these different use cases?

Benno: If I away from the employee and more into the of noise protection measures for the infrastructure, have the different traffic carriers have different traffic noise spectrums. In the road area we are little lower and more middle-frequent than in rail traffic. So if you look at the curve and the frequency spectrum, we in rail traffic in in a much higher frequency or more noise in high frequency range, especially around 2000 Hz. And in the street area the curve is bit flatter and moves more in middle frequency spectrum. Of course, into account or looked at in the development of noise protection measures, that you noise protection systems in that they exactly those frequency areas.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: which for the respective traffic carriers. This can lead to that a noise protection system works for the rail infrastructure, but in the road area or vice versa. So you have to look the system to see where the application area intended for system to take the acoustic fine tuning.

Julien: At NoNoise, are also innovation. Why are you innovation in your field? Where is there still room for innovation in field of acoustic for the chain traffic? Where is the biggest opportunity? Where should they be most in innovation?

Benno: Basically, the infrastructure is no longer about finding solutions that generally reduce but there are numerous solutions. I would say the field is overgrown. There are more areas in highly innovative technologies to make noise protection more attractive, i.e. less urban-like, to bring more acceptance to society. or to lower the noise protection level. To noise protection in such a that noise protection levels don't have than 6 meters, but only 4 or 3 meters. At the time, means that we optimize the noise protection and the efficiency in the implementation. The cheaper noise protection will

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: And the more efficient it can the wider can the noise protection into the mass, because capacities and funds are to more noise protection in society. And these are areas in which product development has the potential to innovation forward.

Julien: It's the area of psychoacoustics, the perception of noise. In many the episodes of Fighting Noise we talk about psychoacoustics and also that not only noise can 80 decibels, depending on the context in you are and where you are Noise is essentially an unwanted sound, an unwanted sound. and not just a loud sound. Regarding this, when we met, you me this anecdote, but I know for the people who affected, it's not an anecdote, but you told me that this perception actually changes depending on how high the wind is. Can you explain this phenomenon of psychoacoustics a with the, I can imagine, The noise was different. You told me that people had the impression that you because they the tracks themselves. Can you this to me before we go the solution?

Benno: Psychoacoustics describes the subjective perception of noise. So not in numbers, decibels, but how I perceive the noise How annoying or pleasant I feel certain way. And that also a big role. If we a construction site, is often enough to a wooden fence. And if people the construction site, the noise is already little less annoying. And so can to implementation of noise protection measures, that depending on the design of the noise protection measures, an additional psycho-acoustic positive effect is In our case, we a transparent system. That means we make sure that the the noise is still visible. compared to closed noise protection walls. We real measurements in of psychoacoustics. We are in exchange with an institute where we will short time how the ⁓ effect is, how the psychoacoustic perception is compared to non-transparent systems related to our system. What I can is that we system where we very positive resonance of the citizens who want have the noise but who still to the trains run. And this feeling of calmness, I see a train moving but I don't anything, can, that at least has, with one resident we talked to, made sure that he says that he has such a living room atmosphere. He has his peace but looks through a window. he can still observe So I can imagine that this a positive effect. If I actively perceive that I something causing but I actively perceive that the noise in a way that it does not bother It can be if a noise barrier is not transparent. I do not see what the noise, but I hear, I still something. I the noise, then it me a little more. at least when I regular noise sources, like the infrastructure. Building sites are certainly a completely different topic when it to noise, but in area of infrastructure I can imagine that we have very different psycho-acoustic effects here, depending on whether I transparent or closed system.

Julien: We are you images so that you can visually. For the listeners who are the podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, can watch the YouTube video. This way you the images and understand better what it is. We are going you product Nevertheless, you can see how it is built without, as said, showing for reliability and so on, but still in the perception, so that you understand that it's not just about seeing trains, but also about absorbing sound at

Benno: The Metawindow, which we together with a partner from Onyx Vibes, the world's first system that at transparent and high absorbing. Maybe I'll explain what high absorption is. There are different performance classes, you say.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: which also have the legal emission limit. In order to with the emission limit, which is legally required, a system must be highly absorbent. Only then can a system be surface-based manner. Normally, noise protection systems reflective. That means the sound is from the disc. The system prevents the from the other side. For the noise-inducing side is twice as loud, because the reflected sound is to the normal imitated sound. Our system, is high-absorbing, which that the sound is in number. On the other side, very little sound is and on the noise-inducing side, the noise is reduced This optimizes the acoustics on both sides of the wall, both on the noise-inducing side and on the... This is a new innovation that before, but was a major pressure for the German train to accept the law protection. We solve this, among other by using resonators that in certain frequencies. We are about Yes, high-choled bodies that via their geometric dimensioning in a specific frequency spectrum. And we have presented resonators with different dimensions and different positions in system. Both the arrangement, i.e. the position, and the dimension of the resonator has a influence on which frequency range additional absorption is The whole thing is combined with ⁓ classical absorption material. Usually is stone wool that is used But there are also alternative materials that ⁓ can be used to combine this classical absorption material, also the geometry and the arrangement of the system. to additional effect. We achieve by going a bit into the horizontal, to keep the view window open and transparency.

Julien: and the different areas of for this Metawindow in the city or what are the special places where it will be

Benno: The noise protection system has developed for use along the infrastructure. It is a noise protection wall system that into existing walls or where noise protection walls can be Instead of closed wall, our system. We focused on the rail infrastructure and there it is course especially important in urban areas where I many residents or tourist-attractive areas or especially around station areas. Transparency is a topic not only for attractiveness but also for security. in narrow urban area, transparency ensures a higher subjective of for the people who try. So this is topic that clear in ballroom areas. ⁓

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: or in tourist-relevant areas. In to rail infrastructure, we terms of infrastructure, for the highway, because the topic of noise protection not only the rail infrastructure, but also the road infrastructure. This is a general topic. We already in close exchange with the Autobahn GmbH. will the first project We are piloting the Metawindow at various locations in Hamburg, on freeway. Then July starts on the Autobahn and in last quarter of year we will in the station area. There we have a small station in Bavaria, where we effect of transparent noise protection measures on the travelers on train, but also on the surrounding shops that are in and ⁓

Julien: Will the results You spoke about the survey with the institute. Will the be published? Or will they be held

Benno: We publish press releases or information if is anything to report. We in Eisenbahn Ingenieur, where we about comparison measurements, which we in Hamburg. In Hamburg we our system with a long-awaited non-transparent system. So the acoustic effectiveness In to check if our transparent system is actually comparable to the systems in the reduction of noise, we to prove that we are comparable, that the system is really high-absorbed. These are results that we course publish. We will In the train sector, be extensive inquiries from people where psychoacoustic topics are relevant or where we can corresponding conclusions. And of course we will the topics public if the corresponding milestones are reached.

Julien: Thank you Benno. I think we this Q &A session. Maybe last but not people are particularly interested in Is there source Are there contact points with the train building group for innovators, experts or... people who are just curious about these projects, how can you best get informed. Apart from this podcast, I would like to you about the next innovation of the Bandual Group, but I think there also other information to

Benno: So on our website bahnbaugruppe.de you can find the Metawindow or you enter Metawindow and bahnbaugruppe on Google, then get to the right page immediately. are my contact details, you can contact me to the Metawindow, but also to other topics. described at we are very partner-oriented.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: We with an expert network that we have built up, but also with innovative startups to make solutions, technical solutions market-driven, to support them, a foot in the market and change And we are always open for talks with external partners, with potential partners or with interested people.

Julien: and will the pages in the description of episode. First of thank for these great answers. We topic innovation and startups in the second part. Thank you, Benno.

Benno: Yeah.

Julien: Thank you Benno for the first part. think on the one hand you me there much potential for innovation anymore and on other hand you also about partnerships with startups and that they are always open. I would like to deepen because I think you are always amazed, in the field of innovation, digital innovation for example or nowadays with AI. the borders are extremely wide, what you can do. Why do you say the potential is limited? a point Or what is your thought behind

Benno: I wouldn't say that the potential for innovation is exhausted. There lot of potential for innovation. What I wanted is that deep-seeding fruits have already been harvested. The simple solutions for noise protection are developed. There are no more results to be But in innovative field there is still lot to be You can noise protection more efficient.

Julien: Yeah. Okay.

Benno: means fighting less mass, globally speaking. So by eliminating less noise protection, the same noise as I with high noise protection. That is a core issue, we efficiency increase of the acoustic effectiveness of measures.

Julien: But you say less because less material means more interesting or more sustainable? Both?

Benno: Both. If I instead of 6 meters, only 4 meters high, that first all cheaper, second, I consume less raw materials, so it is more and third, it is more I have fewer noise protection walls that through the landscape. There are three very important areas in the area of noise protection, where is still much to

Julien: from the aesthetic. And of course it's about material. ⁓ There is technology in the field, so ⁓ electronics or software that implemented to either measure or optimize. Are there projects or are there in the past? Or is it completely excluded because it's too expensive to implement?

Benno: In the field of electronics, if you noise cancelling and counter frequencies, we as Marmor Group are not active I don't know if there are that are concerned with in terms of infrastructure. With the infrastructure we have the problem, it is not a specific topic, but a long-term topic. We have several kilometers and if I...

Julien: Yeah, to make me Mm-hmm.

Benno: along these thousands of kilometers, appropriate technology, I can imagine that maintenance and maintenance problematic, cost-technically probably not all too efficient, etc. So I can imagine that it in the infrastructure area to in that area. Less so when I punctual noise sources that are actively fighting.

Julien: Microphone on. In France, the SNCF ⁓ planned a budget change of 150 million euros ⁓ and is beginning to invest. I think there 150 black spots, 150 places where the residents are by the public transport. Are there similar projects in programs that you know, investment programs, have you heard of anything like that for the German market?

Benno: There are two different systems after which noise protection implemented. There is the so-called noise care and noise repair. The noise care comes from where I build new tracks or adjust existing tracks in such a that we of a significant change. So from three tracks

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: I add a section of Then the change is so massive that I have legal limits that are prescribed. That means that due to requirements, noise protection measures are For reconstruction or adjustment of tracks. And then there is the noise restoration program.

Julien: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Benno: This sounds comparable to what you about the SNCF. It is voluntary program for noise-cancelling. It is about the of that have been in operation time. To repair the residents by noise-cancelling measures. This is not required. is voluntary. It is important to emphasize

Julien: Okay.

Benno: The railway or the Federal Republic not have implement these There is a noise map of Germany. There different routes that we have, according to their noise emissions and emissions. So you can see how big the noise emissions are.

Julien: Okay. Is it public? Can you the card? Can you the card? Is it public? Can I link Okay. So, can we add the link for the listeners in the description? Okay.

Benno: How can you find them? In this noise map there is also a prognosis of how it like 2030. In the noise restoration the focus is on being as efficient as possible. That means where are heavily noise-related routes and where I many inhabitants. the number of people and the amount of or the more pronounced the noise and the more people...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: the higher the route section in the prioritization of the program. The program is also centrally controlled by us at the DB-INFRA-GO, where ⁓ the entire Federal Republic has been which route sections should be perspectively reclaimed.

Julien: Deutsche Bahn is a huge company. It's run DB Infra, which managing As DB Bahn construction group, you of the infrastructure. But it's not about running the infrastructure, but really everything from renovations, say renovation, and new... I don't if there are many new railways, that has be... It's already very well connected.

Benno: There are many large construction projects with new construction projects. In addition to purely maintenance and maintenance, are numerous large projects that on the Deutsche Bahn. And as you said correctly, we as the train construction group are not operators, not owners of the infrastructure, but we are service providers. It is also important to mention that we are 100 % in competition. We are a company that the open market. We have be competitive, both in of our quality and terms of our economy.

Julien: You said you work with Autobahn GmbH. So you this partnership for Metawindows. Metawindows anywhere in Europe or in world when you have Back to the topic of innovation search. How do you meet... startups and new technology. How do you new providers in field of materials or in which technological field? How do you them? Because it's a very wide market. You have many different small problems, but there is a lot of innovation behind it, but is lot of behind it to innovation to market. How do you them?

Benno: There are different sources for For one, in DB-corporate there are... I out I'll the question There are different sources for... ...innovative ideas, products or companies to source.

Julien: Innovationsprogramme? Ok, Marjane.

Benno: Among other things, is a startup program at DB, the so-called DB Mindbox. There you actively with it to source and also actively support. There are startup competitions where a certain topic is put in focus, where different startups can with their solutions or their ideas and concepts.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Benno: You deal with the topic of also with other topics, sustainability topics, generally make the infrastructure more or to the issue and so on. But the cooperation with Von Onik Vibes for the Metawindow, for example, from the DB-Mindbox. Von Onik Vibes won a startup contest there, presented a concept. for a transparent high absorbing system. And from the mindbox, the contact was to me to develop a market-based system. And then we went into very, very tight and strong co-development. We started developing a system with a goal The was transparent and high absorbing. So not any system that has any performance, was clear. It has to least high-resolution. So that's one source. So the DB-Mindbox is a source for the companies to find different startups Personally, I also involved in the noise protection wall industry and you are in of talks with other market participants, other companies and if you your eyes and ears open, then you

Julien: If you. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Benno: less interesting things, but also the one other jewel that is worth exchanging so, is about the personal contact that you companies that are interesting or that high potential to get deeper into a cooperation.

Julien: You're very good. Yeah. How early do startups start? Because I said that if you develop there is a lot of investment behind I can imagine that is also co-investment or co-development in this area, in the construction sector in general. But how early are you able to with a startup? The big concern is huge. Procurement, you imagine that as small startup it not even accessible or vice versa, because you very specific projects and needs, your start-up very early.

Benno: We, I'm not about the DB-Cons, but the urban development group, we can every conceivable phase and with startups. This can start with the idea of product development, the approval process and the market entry and sales. It on how far the respective startup is already.

Julien: Yeah, for the band. Yeah.

Benno: does this startup have a highly innovative product that is in another country, but also for German market, then is possible that we say, we get involved, see that we can the product approved so that it an approval in German market or to develop and advise to it approved, just because a system in a third country, say Portugal, That doesn't mean that it can in Germany, because we sometimes other guidelines. That means our task is to startups in to systems there, so that they can used So that is one field that is that we have solutions for the German market get permissible.

Julien: to it. Yeah.

Benno: Another topic is that we also work together to develop relevant solutions. That's we it with Fondantik Vibes. Over four years we the system together. So we as a Barber Group are very open, depending on which phase is the decisive one. We also with the companies we work on the development costs, the approval costs, so that this really a...

Julien: Okay. You don't in the startup itself, but in the development costs. You contribute a part of the development costs, but you in the startup, in the capital of the startup or not?

Benno: At least it hasn't before that we are in the capital of the start-up. I don't want exclude for the train building group that this in this or similar form at given time. But currently the concept that we are is that we a very close partnership, a lot of trust, lot of cooperation to also development spirit. and to through financial engagement, also through capacity, through know-how and our network, which we have, into the to support the corresponding product development.

Julien: It's good because it's a early-stage startup that a great solution. You can imagine that there are many PhDs working on technical solutions, but they able to finance You are open to support this innovation financially so that it can really the market. You said that have such large networks or infrastructure. Scaling is a self-purpose for every innovation. You are open to only with big windows, but also with innovative startups. You the NoLinicVibes, we promote it. It's an Italian startup. I don't know when they founded, but you said you have developing this Metawindow before a market is which ⁓ is in Hamburg today and soon you to the questions about Autobahn and when it be

Benno: So four years of development and approval can be summarized. We did four years, but we designed one year, I would say. Then we the approval process. In the approval process, you have to very broad spectrum of different laboratory tests. We have to five million train passages. That corresponds to a usage time of 50 years.

Julien: okay.

Benno: And very strong pressure and suction forces are to the empty protective wall. This very demanding laboratory experiment where the system for safety and looks at by over course of 50 years. Are there cracks? Can individual parts break or even a danger to the train traffic or next to the wall? And this application process, you to determine that you optimizations, that you might have to rethink how to a basic construction, etc. So I would say one year design, one year finding, approval and redesign, and then two years of process and everything.

Julien: You don't have to forget about the R &D costs of such startups, also from the financing point view. But if you're already that far, you're relatively safe to to the market. It's just a long process, but you're relatively sure that you're... Well, no. There are projects that not allowed to to

Benno: So.

Julien: It's a of a bit for and it to the market.

Benno: We as Baanbock Group have currently not a system in development that has not any approval or has no view on approval. But is not to be that there are that ultimately do not any approval because they the requirements. This is of course a smaller startups, a very big market entry barrier, because I investment decisions and have lot of time.

Julien: Yep. Yeah, it's dramatic.

Benno: until the whole thing is realized. And that is also the key to what we offer. On one hand, know-how, the evaluation, is worth starting this process at So the use case has there. The need of the company has to there, so that we can start with the development at So if you a long way, you have to know that If you manage to the solution and the permission, then accordingly.

Julien: We are already over time. A last topic I would like to address, namely the future. Where does go? What is the market in 10 or 20 years? You have very long-term projects, i.e. 4 years of development time, including admission. That means you are already what in 5 or 10 15 years. is or expected, it direction which innovation in the field train construction.

Benno: This multi-layered topic. We are already in the development of other innovative topics. I can't tell about because of business secrets, but the path is clearly there. Design and attractiveness of heat protection measures. is the core area we have deal The other core area is efficiency increase.

Julien: Trustful topic and lot work.

Benno: to increase the acoustic efficiency, but also to the costs and the assembly time. A key factor is the time it takes to a noise protection measure. When I build, I a train. When no train is have an underlying delay and less mobility for the people.

Julien: Mm-hmm. What does it say? X million. Yeah.

Benno: That means, building is a key to making noise protection possible in the mass. These the core fields we are and dealing Attractiveness, safety, efficiency.

Julien: minutes. Exciting! Exciting! Then I'm curious what else is We a few topics. Please have in the description of the episode for the links to better view. And I'm sure in a few months or years we will again and this innovation. But Benno, I thank you very much for your time today. I'm sure that this interested people, to an insight into the world of the DB train building group and for the management of the German train But thank much for your time today. For all listeners or viewers on YouTube, thank you for this until the Please share this with your network. We will more and episodes in German. I know there are many episodes in English This is because many German-speaking guests also like to in English. But it is in English, French and German. But please share this episode and comment if you more episodes in German. Then I would happy. But I need feedback. Thank you much for that. I Hacker, team leader of the DB band building group. Thank you very and have a nice day.

Benno: Thank you again Julien, wish you all the best, see next time!

Julien: Thank

Benno: Ciao.