How Saint-Gobain Designs for Real Acoustic Comfort

Julien: Welcome back to Fighting Noise, the podcast where I speak with innovators, investors and experts tackling sound pollution in bold ways. Today, I'm joined by Karel Sedlacek, International Product Manager and Building Science Expert at Saint-Gobain, a European leader in materials and acoustic solutions through the daughter company Ecophon. We'll explore why noise remains a challenge in our built environment, where innovation succeeds, all stores and our Saint-Gobain is pushing for real acoustic comfort. Bonjour Karel, Hi

Karel SEDLACEK: Hello, hello, Julien Hello, everyone.

Julien: I'm really glad you're here, thanks a lot for joining. Carol, before we dive in, what force does sound or noise play in your day-to-day work as building science expert? Is the core part of your focus or just one of many building performance topics you deal with?

Karel SEDLACEK: It's somewhere between, because it's part of the many other topics that I'm covering at Saint-Gobain because acoustic is one of the main points, know, so think 20, maybe 30 percent of my time I focus on the acoustic. 35 maybe, you know, so... Because it's a really, really, really important part.

Julien: It's a very important part. We will dive in, but maybe let's start by introducing yourself. Karel, who are you?

Karel SEDLACEK: So I'm International Building Science Manager at Saint-Gobain. I'm responsible for all the countries of Saint-Gobain. They need some kind of building science support, a little bit more in marketing way, because of course we have special R &D department, where we focus mainly on R &D project. But my main subject is simplify difficult things for the normal people, you know, to better understand how it is working. and it's same also topic in case of the acoustic. To simplify the difficult things, you know, to the normal people to better understand the topics itself.

Julien: Mm-hmm. You're working at the headquarters of Saint-Gobain in Paris and you're acting for World Europe or at a global level, worldwide.

Karel SEDLACEK: Yeah, yeah. Worldwide, So, yeah, so if someone from China or from South America needs something, you know, from other countries, of course, as well, they contact me and we discuss what kind of question they need. For example, this morning there was a question from UAE. So they needed some support in software and see the impact of different... different combination of Saint-Gobain materials, combination of mineral isolation with different kind of plasterboard and different thicknesses to see what kind of impact it can have.

Julien: Okay, perfect. Let's start with the basics. Saint-Gobain, Ecophon. What would both companies offer today when it comes to acoustics comfort in buildings? What are the...

Karel SEDLACEK: We have, I think, three main pillars that we focus on in case of the acoustic, depending on the products. You mentioned the echo phone, of course, echo phone is one of them. But in case of the echo phone, we mainly look at the room acoustics. So, focus on the reverberation time to improve the comfort of people in the rooms. But of course, the other solution that we have in different brands like Isolation or Gypsum, We focus on airborne sound or impact sound depending if you need to do isolation of the walls, mainly partition walls, but it can be also facade or roof or whatever. And of course for the floating floors to reduce the impact sound what can come from the people that are moving and sometimes they can disturb the other people that are living on the floor below. Yeah, so we have this kind of free pillars, if I can call it, and depending what the people need to improve, so we go in different directions.

Julien: And your projects are offices, residential buildings, schools, hospitals, every kind of projects I can imagine.

Karel SEDLACEK: Yeah, yeah, you are right, exactly.

Julien: And what is the main differentiator of Sangerbens? Is it question of material like wood wool instead of rock wool in competition like rock wool in Denmark? is it... Where is the main differentiator of such a group?

Karel SEDLACEK: So first we don't focus only on one kind of materials. We are multi-materials company. the main aim is to focus on solution, not only on the products level, but solution level on the building level. So if you look on the building level, building scale, this is always combination, you know. So this is what people really need or what is the main interest of the people. Okay, so sometimes they are focusing only to reach a little bit more decibels of partition wall. But in general, the main customer for them. it's important to have better acoustics inside the room. And the customer doesn't care if we improve partition walls or the walls around or I don't know the quality of the door what are inside the partition. So, and we need to...

Julien: Mm-hmm. The outcome is more important.

Karel SEDLACEK: We need to have the knowledge what the customer really needs and after focus what it's relevant to change or to improve.

Julien: The outcome is more important than the material itself, the strategy you use to reach that outcome.

Karel SEDLACEK: It's combination, I don't like to say that Matera is not so important. It's important. But I think more important is how to build all the construction. So if we need two layers, three layers, five layers of different materials to cover all the frequencies. And in this situation, of course, the matter is important, but it's also important that the order of the matter would be set.

Julien: Mm-hmm. Saint-Gobain talks a lot about multi-comfort and about sustainability. How do acoustics fit into that, especially into sustainability? Is a strong expectation from the market, sustainability, and is noise seen as part of sustainability?

Karel SEDLACEK: It's still growing, so it's definitely more and more important. It's maybe not on the level where it should be, but it's growing definitely, so it's more and more important for many customers. is, and for end users, it's still on the high level. It's still a little bit lower than the other needs, what they need to fulfill. But if you...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: move little bit on the developer level or architects level, it's already a little bit higher than at end users and it's growing. And for us, the sustainability is the main key and to performance it's part of the sustainability. So, acoustic is part of the sustainability in general.

Julien: Mm-hmm. You are a building science expert, measuring the effectiveness of the acoustic solution will be very important. How do you measure that? Is it a reduction in decibel? We spoke about the outcome, user satisfaction. Is it about regulation and compliance?

Karel SEDLACEK: It's everything, it's everything. So if you are doing some kind of test in laboratory, so it's a pure test in Decibel, so we know after the test what is the performance of the construction. If we go a little bit to the customer, of course we need to know the customer survey. We already made a couple in the past, so we know how sensitive the customer are. And even...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: If they reach the standards, and this is the other part, we of course, in many countries, we somehow focus on the standardization committee. Many of SunCube members are part or at least contribute at developing new standards. So, and at the end, if we do the survey according to the level what is set in the standards, the satisfaction of the customers is different, you know? So even if you reach the...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: level in standards still more than 50 % of the people is not satisfied you know with the level of the acoustic so probably still place for the improvement but of course it will cost something because if you put more materials or change the construction for something what has higher performance usually this little bit expensive and this is the main key and main point what is important for everyone

Julien: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: the price of the construction and if people are able to pay extra price to have higher comfort. And it's not just acoustic comfort, how I mentioned I am responsible for other comfort, so it's also thermal comfort, visual comfort, or you need to reach some kind of minimum fire resistivity of the construction around you. So it's many, many, many things and you need to combine all the things together.

Julien: Mm-hmm. But you said it, so the regulations and standards are giving a limit. But if we speak really about comfort and not just health, these limits are maybe not high enough. But it's a question of investment, a question of money. Why we don't have maybe better buildings today. It's mostly a question of budget.

Karel SEDLACEK: It's also a question of the budget, but it's also question about the knowledge of the people. Because in normal situation, if the people don't need it, the situation is not really going fast in this direction. Because no one needs it, so why to improve it? So this is still question mark what we should do to improve the knowledge of the people about acoustic. We are doing lots of...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: We have lots of documents on websites, we are doing different kind of webinars, something like today with you and so on, podcasts, but at the end, of course, it's so many things, but are online, so the people need to, split their time between other topics also. So with the acoustic will be not so important for them, so nothing changed.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: Other thing is the noise level around us is growing. We have more cars, more other transports, we have more equipment inside, refrigerator, freezer, printer and many other things and everything is doing some kind of noise. So the noise level around us is growing and it's higher and higher according to the measurement that we have seen in the past. So the level around us of the noise is growing.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: and we need to mention it to the people then the noise level has not just impact about the acoustic comfort it can really have a deep impact on the the health of the people and during day also during night and there were many many studies what I have seen already and it can really help

Julien: Yeah.

Karel SEDLACEK: impact on the heart attacks what people got during the years so there are many studies so it's really important part

Julien: Totally. It's a part we mentioned a lot in this podcast, the impact of noise and noise pollution on health, on changing sleeping patterns. You said that hearing or raising the blood pressure and bringing more heart attacks and so on. And you mentioned all these new devices. We must...

Karel SEDLACEK: Exactly.

Julien: be aware that 1 % of the energy spent on devices is transformed into noise at the end, into sound, into noise. So even if it's not higher than the standard and we don't speak about 80, 90 or 100 decibel noises, having a lot of small engines turning in our home is generating some small noise. And in terms of psychoacoustic, we are aware of this noise and it changed something in the way We do sleep in the way we do live. We do work, working from home and so on. So it has a lot of importance. And it's the same at the workplace. So it's essential. In different episodes, I heard that architects, for instance, and professionals are not trained enough. You mentioned you are training people, but you're training people already working in this area. Do you think or do feel that students, new architects coming on the market, are coming with better knowledge in terms of noise pollution, or it's still really hard, they are not well trained when joining or coming on the market? What do you think?

Karel SEDLACEK: According to my experience, is still on the same level. We are trying to push it. We have also architecture student contests, like Saint-Gobain architecture student contests for the students from many countries. And acoustic comfort is one of the criteria that they should fulfill. But at the end, what we can see, just how, say, 20 or 30 % of the students really have some knowledge. then can really, reach all the criteria. The rest, put there some information, okay, it's better than nothing, but I can easily see that the knowledge level of the time is still not there, but it should be. They just put there some DBs. They don't know what DBs mean. They don't know what are the limits. They don't know what is the impact if there is five DBs more or less.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: For them it's just number what they found somewhere and put it inside the project. I don't speak about everyone, of course, there are many exceptions. But generally, how I see it, if they are doing the project, they are doing, if we talk about students of architecture, they are looking on the nice building, on the shape of the building. So they are doing...

Julien: Sure. Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: many many nice pictures you know that sometimes they are also doing some calculation you know about the heat loss and so on you know but for the acoustic it's it's a little bit more difficult subject for TAM so they just postpone this area postpone this area and at the end they have no time to really cover it completely and they just put something TAM so if we if you ask

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: Can you hear 3 dB differences? So they don't know what they should answer. If you ask them what is 10 dBs, can you hear it? They don't say it's like TV twice loud. They don't know this information. ⁓

Julien: They don't understand the cause and don't understand the consequences of this and can't change this.

Karel SEDLACEK: Exactly, exactly. If I talk with him, many of them told me, yes, you are right, but I don't have time for it. If I need some acoustic specialist, so I will hire acoustic expert only for this topic. But from my point of view, at least the architect should have some overview about it also. I understand he can go to details, of course, but at least to have some basic understanding and if he designed some kind of

Julien: basic knowledge.

Karel SEDLACEK: really not really well acoustic performance, performance construction, it's already bad from the beginning, you know, and after someone need to replace it with something else or improve it somehow, you know, so at least, at least even the architects should have some general information about acoustic. Some of them have, of course, I think most of them still not.

Julien: cost more money, even more money. Karel, let's focus on innovation a little bit. What are some recent product innovations you've been involved in? Maybe in terms of materials, but also I know you work a lot on VR, so in terms of digital tools. What are the newest or biggest innovations you work with?

Karel SEDLACEK: Yeah, so if you mention about the product level, of course we are doing many projects in R &D, know, we are trying to combine different materials and different kind of fibers and combine it with nanofibers together and to see what we can still improve. But it is long process, so the results need more more years to be really ready to launch on the market. Even if we find something that is quite useful, very often it is much more and the people are not ready to pay a double price just for 10 % improvement or something like it. So it's a long, long process. If I will move from the materials level or product level to construction level, again we are doing many experiments, many tests, many simulations.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: It is again long process, so the impact will be during the years, not immediately in one or two years. And in short time, everyone from the big bosses would like everything in short time, but it's not unfortunately possible to it so fast. Sometimes yes, but it's really rare. In case of the tools, yes, this is the way when we can really speed up all the process.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: because you mentioned VR. If you are in VR and you have headphones on, even VR itself is quite good, so people really get different experience if they are inside, can see different construction, they see the figures in dBs, so they can know how many dBs it is, or how much dBs it's the performance of different construction. And if you are inside the simulation and switch to something else, They really have a direct impression of it, you know, and it's really valuable and it's easy to do it already because the technology is quite advanced. So I think it is the way how we can speed up all the process to explain to people how important it's the acoustic for them and how big impact it can have.

Julien: Last week I did interviews with founder of a company called Treble from Iceland. They offering a solution to simulate sound and noise in advance. Do you use this solution or other solutions to simulate sound in advance on planning?

Karel SEDLACEK: Yes, we have many tools. I used Insul, so it's a solution from a New Zealand company. So it's quite good software, what we are using. In many SancoBank companies we are using this software, but I know there are many other softwares on the market, what I already have seen. Some softwares are...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: focusing on the general construction like this in Suvoth I mentioned. But I have seen also some special tools. are focused on CLT panels, you know, or some other construction that are developing quite fast on the market. Minder lightweight construction. Saint-Gobain is leader between lightweight construction because how we mentioned at the beginning, the minor aim of Saint-Gobain is to the sustainability in a general way, better for the people, better for the planet, so create some solution that will have a much lower CO2 impact. This is why we focus on lightweight construction, because the CO2 impact is much lower than if you compare it with heavy construction. And if you use more layers, in case of the acoustic it's quite...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: better performance, most frequencies if you compare it with massive construction so it's also a big advance but of course they have some big points and some frequencies of course so the people need to work with it carefully and with some kind of knowledge so how I mentioned we used many softwares and I think in R &D we used more than five different kind of softwares and compare if we are doing some simulation we compare it between each other to see what we can expect and after we do the real test, know, and again, compare it with the real test because it costs a lot if you do the physical test, but if you do the simulation, it's much cheaper.

Julien: and yeah. ⁓ but you're able to simulate. If you had magical power and you would be able to launch or to use a new innovation on the market, just right now this month, because you said it, lot of innovations are too expensive or lot of innovations are very long to develop at any time, ⁓ meaning we won't have the solution before a few years.

Karel SEDLACEK: Yeah, exactly.

Julien: But you have this magical power for once. Congratulations. You are able to invent a solution or to pick a solution, anything on the market. What would be the solution helping you the most today and bringing the most value today?

Karel SEDLACEK: So right now when we see what the market needs, they need a solution that will be on the same price or even cheaper, with for example 50 % more higher performance in case of the acoustic. So if I have this power, I would like to something that will be easy to do, cheap, with much higher acoustic performance than we have now. You know what I mean? Something like 10 dB smaller.

Julien: just a better material but not more expensive because you said it, that's the limit. If it's more expensive it won't grow through the market.

Karel SEDLACEK: It's not the question of the material itself, I think it's a question of the system solution. And this is what we are trying to improve. Because you can combine different layers of materials with different parameters to reach the optimal level of the acoustic performance. Of course, we have some limits now. So if we improve many materials in better way...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: and put it together inside the construction and design the construction much better, it will be perfect. For example, the weak point of the construction in case of the lightweight construction are the studs. You need to have something to hold the load what is coming from the building itself. So without them it's not possible it will fall down, you know. But this is still the weak point. If we can find something that replaced them and will still... work well, you know, I had no idea how to do it, but in case of the power, so I will just erase them with nothing, with just air, what will be some kind of supporting for the construction load and we already can improve the construction, I don't know, 5 dB screws just like this, you know, and so, yeah.

Julien: Mm-hmm. ⁓ You're a guy, I give you this magical power a second time. It's a time for digital innovation. It can combine hardware or software or be software only. But if you could find a new solution or just right now and being able to use it, what would be the software you would dream of?

Karel SEDLACEK: Software of the dream is complete, have everything in VR. So I mean the architect will create the design of the building and immediately we can go through VR inside the building itself, what he designed and see all the construction and just press the button and say, please use, I don't know, five top construction what can have the best acoustic in this situation.

Julien: End thing.

Karel SEDLACEK: and we will see the limits inside. Inside VR, we will see five different options, and we can just use which one is the best one or which was the cheapest one from time and immediately implement inside the project. So the architect will create just the design of the building, and after all the things we do direct in VR, and it updates the project immediately in the software that he is using. So he will just co-work with us.

Julien: and test it live.

Karel SEDLACEK: to optimize all the construction. Or it can be some AI implemented inside. So he don't need us, he can do it himself. Just go there and ask AI, please improve this, this, and AI offer him or she or her some kind of option, is best to use. And if we implement that immediately in the BIM 3D object. yeah.

Julien: Love it. I love it. I know this podcast is followed by many innovators and founders, so I guess it's a perfect call for projects and for innovation. Guys, folks, if you have an idea of a solution for the future, that's your roadmap. Thanks, Thierry, for sharing this dream. But when you describe it, I think it's a realizable dream because the technology... does exist, but we need to combine a lot of different things and it's always a question of performance. So yes, we're able to do that for sure, but to be able to fit every kind of custom project and get all this knowledge into one place, I think that's big challenge here. But still, it's not a flying shoes. I guess we are able at some point to have that kind of solution. How do you prioritize What to develop next on your side? Do you take the feedback from architects, from the market, from the regulation? What are the factors of influence to prioritize your L &D roadmap?

Karel SEDLACEK: everything what you mentioned and much more. We are focusing on many channels depending on kind of project we are doing. So if I am supporting the countries with my knowledge, it's mainly the question is coming from the market. are two minor subjects that are giving us the feedback, the customers.

Julien: Which more?

Karel SEDLACEK: Depending on the guys, can be architects, sellers, craftsmen, end users, whatever. So they need something. Usually they need a little bit adapt or current solution to something else. So I'm supporting them. What will be the final impact if we change some things, switch one material with the other and so on. So this is the mine channel. The other channel is R &D, you know, because from this channel, sometimes we can find something that doesn't exist, what the customer is looking for and still can't find it because nothing exists. So after we go to R &D and discuss with them if this is possible to develop something what the customer needs, of course, there is much big work behind, know, we need to some surveys, see the market share and you know, so it's not just one customer, but...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: Of course, one customer is important, but it's not enough power to change something, some developing process or something like it. But if this is many customers with same needs, of course it's already, and if this is already a good market. So after we do some solution and try to try to develop something that will really fit according to their needs. So when the, so it's. architects, end users, you know. Sometimes also the idea comes direct from the R &D. But in the past we were a little bit more techno push, you know. So we found something really interesting and tried to push on the market. Look, we have this, you know. But in reality it doesn't work well, you know. It's much better. Move a little bit from invention to innovation. I mean not have just good nice idea, but really...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: Create something what the customer needs, you know? So be more innovative and little bit less and create some invention what no one needs or no one would like to buy, you know?

Julien: I'm a product guy, a digital product guy, that's basic of product management and solving customer pain before inventing anything new and useless. But you said it. We focused a lot on B2B, but I know you can bring an added value on a B2C perspective and a few advice for builders for...

Karel SEDLACEK: you

Julien: for consumers, building things, or even occupants. So let's go maybe rapidly on best practices and recommendations for final users. For someone building or renovating a home, it could be a small office or anything, what are the first signs that noise might become a problem and they should care about?

Karel SEDLACEK: In this situation it's really not easy because if they like do the renovation or try to build new building or sometimes just rent the building itself, it's very often too late. Because if you rent a house and go to the house and after two or three days you just discover it and the street what is close to the house is so noisy and the quality of the window is...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: it's not good enough, you know, and you have lots of noise also during the night and you sleep bad, so it is not optimal and after you are looking for some expert who can help you and so on, you know. So I think it's have better noise before you will even start, you know. So, but this is the weak point because...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: Most of the people have no knowledge before, know, and after it's already too late, you know, and it costs much more, you know. So, and I don't know how to convince people then it's, this should be also at the starting point and not later, but for this knowledge you need have already the knowledge itself, you know. So, the people they already have it, they probably made some mistake in the past and remember it quite well, but for the...

Julien: Completely understand that, yeah.

Karel SEDLACEK: newcomers with this.

Julien: you're learning from previous mistakes, but that's the old goal of this podcast, creating awareness on this topic.

Karel SEDLACEK: There should be some checklist. think maybe it is a question for someone who is doing or is building the buildings or I don't know some government or someone who should create some kind of checklist. And on the checklist should be some, things what the people should check before they will buy rent or make a renovation what should check, you know, and...

Julien: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karel SEDLACEK: they will be on the list also acoustic and so on, know, so the people will see it and after maybe try to find more information about it, you know, but in normal situation everyone is doing the checklist themselves or at least they keep it in their mind what is, yeah, and acoustic is nowhere, you know, and yeah, and after, okay, we miss it. When I'm moving to vacation, I always doing the checklist not to...

Julien: including the sound and the noise around. And forget acoustic. Yeah.

Karel SEDLACEK: forgot, okay, so you know swimsuit and other things, you know, but sometimes things like pyjama, okay, so it's not, how to say, very often on the list, but you still need it, you know, so this is same like with the acoustic on the checklist, there should be some checklist, even the things that are important and not obvious.

Julien: I will link in the comments two or three solutions mapping noise on the street. Today there are solutions out there, not mapping every square meter on the planet, but a lot of them in cities. Meaning if you are listening to this podcast and you are aware of all this, maybe you will use one of these links and share it to be able to identify, is the street I want to live in? noisy street or not? Or is the street of the school of my kids a noisy street or not? And what do I need to take into account? You mentioned windows. What are the two, three basic but high impact interventions anyone can apply to reduce noise in a space, whether at work or in schools or at home? Is there something high impact, if low investment, but high impact?

Karel SEDLACEK: Yeah, yeah, there is one thing what is important. It's really, really often it's quite bad, you know. So I'm usually doing some kind of my own paper test. I call it like paper test. I just take A4 paper sheet and just put it inside the window, close it, the window again, you know, open the window, put the sheet of the paper inside, close it. And if I easily remove it, the rubber...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: the rubber or the fixation of the rubber between the frame and the open part of the window is not good enough. You have some little leakages. It's important for air tightness of the building and it's also important for the acoustic. Because you have little holes or little gaps around and it completely...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: I don't like to say destroy, but at least it really, it's the thing, to, the reduction of the acoustic is really high, you know, because this issue, you know, so, and if the people ask me, can I improve construction, I will put inside some special partition wall or from outside isolation and so on, you know, because the road or the street is quite nice and so on, you know.

Julien: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Karel SEDLACEK: So I said yes, maybe it is second or third step. But first step is to check where is the weak test point on the construction. And you know it quite well like me. If you have a wall 50 dBs and window 35, depending of course on the size and so on, so it always drop to the lowest test ⁓ performance construction. So it will be.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: the result will be I don't know 36, 37 something like it you know. So make really no sense to improve the OPPA construction which is already quite good and we need to focus on the weakest point and usually it is door or window or something like this you know and if we improve it after we can go back to the other construction and my test And everyone can do it. Just put the paper inside the window, close it, and if you can easily move it, or sometimes I can also move it around, know, around the frame, I can just move it. Of course, there are some, steel parts, okay, so you will stop there, but at least you can move between, okay, so it's already really bad. And with really low cost, you can change the rubber to something new. And just replace the rubber with new one and...

Julien: Yeah. Yuck.

Karel SEDLACEK: You are OK. Or just rectificate the window a little bit more to remove this weak point. Or pain point.

Julien: Mm-hmm. OK. That's great. That's great. And for sure, I will create a short on YouTube just with this run recommendation. Because I really think a lot of people will test it, could test it, and will realize there is some issue. When picking solution on the market, if you go to the do-it-yourself market and try to do by a wall, there is a lot of, if you look at Pinterest and Instagram, you see these walls, these acoustic panels, and a lot of them are, I heard about, are using, let's say, green argument or green motion argument, but I know that a lot of acoustic panels mostly are produced in a... in a very miserable manner and are lot of chemicals and are really not good for even for the health. So what should people look for to spot a good science-based product, isolation product, soundproofing product?

Karel SEDLACEK: Well, it depends what you need to reach. If you talk about the panels, it is really useful if you like to improve the room acoustics. Like in your case, you have some kind of acoustic studio, so okay. For this situation, is probably the best what you can do. Put this acoustic product on the wall, on the ceiling, you know, on the floor carpet, something like it, what can absorb really well all the frequencies. And in this situation, it helps. You can look on the technical data sheets to compare different products each by each to see which one, is in better class, it's accumulation class, so if you are in class 1 or A or B, so you are still quite good, of course, but it's only one part of the acoustic, room acoustic, you know, but if you have noisy neighbors and what are beside you or above you, this is completely different solution.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Karel SEDLACEK: This kind of panel will help you like zero or almost nothing, you know. And you need to completely change focus on different kind of construction. In this situation, it is beside you, okay. You can put some extra partition wall and have, I don't know, double size of the wall and improve it, something like it, or put more layers, insulation, plasterboard, I don't know, something what is a massive construction and... and some mineral isolation that can absorb and some boards that can reflect the acoustic and combine it. But even this sometimes it can go around, you know, because you have always some connection, know. So if you have partition and the wall around, so it can go around the partition and you will lose the performance anyway. So sometimes you need also do something more. And this is in case of the wall between the old valuing and the second one. but it is someone above you. Again, we are moving to impact house, you know, and you need to do some floating floor. And this is the main issue what many customers have if they are living in multi residential buildings, you know, and someone living or live above them. And said, yeah, he's noisy, what I can do. And if this is just speech, TV or something like it. They can do some acoustic sealants, know, again plasterboard and isolation between the current ceiling and the plasterboards after and it can help a lot. But if this is impact sound, you know, they can hear the steps or how the people are moving or running or they moving with the furniture quite often or I don't know. And it's already in the walls and the ceiling will help them really, really low, know, almost like nothing for this kind of noise.

Julien: If it's high enough, yep.

Karel SEDLACEK: and they need again do some floating floors but not at their floor but they need to go to the neighbor and ask them but of course usually the neighbor is not he or she don't like to invest for new floor just because of better comfort for the neighbors they are living below him you know so in this situation it's really difficult situation okay you can do some bugs in bugs, you know, so you can isolate your flat from all the areas around, but it's too expensive and no one would like to do it, you know. But in this situation it is really problematic, so you can discuss with the neighbors, okay, please don't do it, but if this is difficult they can change just, I would say, ceramic tiles to carpet, it helps a lot, but if they don't like to do it also, well... it is already a difficult situation. You can maybe ask some company who will measure the acoustic level in your house and after look on the regulation on the standards and say okay it's already above the limits that someone can maybe help you but at least this kind of noise it's a problem.

Julien: I will share in the comments in the description of the episode, the video you shared with me of maybe the last solution in case you are disturbed by the noise of your...

Karel SEDLACEK: Yeah.

Julien: neighbor above but just have a look in the description of the episode and watch this YouTube video. Carol thank you very much for all this good advice also on a B2C perspective and not just on B2B world. Finally do you have a last personal tip for making any space feel a bit quieter a bit more comfortable acoustically or not because as you said you're a building science expert at Saint-Gobain not only

Karel SEDLACEK: You

Julien: for acoustics but for all kinds of comfort. Do we have a last word, a last tip for our audience?

Karel SEDLACEK: Not direct for your audience because everyone who will be there is already there and they probably already have or will have soon some kind of knowledge about acoustic if they follow your channel. But for them please share this information with your neighbors, with your family members and with others to help us split the knowledge about acoustic between other people. Because I understand that people that are here already know something but...

Julien: I hope so.

Karel SEDLACEK: being it also focused for the people, they still don't know.

Julien: So speak about it not with people who know but people who don't know it's a very good advice so I will keep it as a final word. Karel Sedlachek, International Product Manager and Building Science Expert at Saint-Gobain. Thanks a lot for your time today. I think it was really useful for even if people know for a lot of people to understand.

Karel SEDLACEK: Exactly.

Julien: or you work at Sangaba about these issues, but also what could we do to optimize our built environment for later. If you watched or listened to this episode, please give us a comment, note, share this episode even with people who don't know. That's a good advice and thanks for listening, thanks for watching and thanks for following No Noise. As you said it, Karel, it's a collective work to make it work and to make people aware of acoustics and of noise pollution. So thanks a lot to everyone and I say see you soon, see you next week for the next episode. Thanks a lot, Karel.

Karel SEDLACEK: Okay, bye bye.

Julien: Bye. Thank you.