Controlling Sound with Metamaterials – Luca d’Alessandro (Phononic Vibes)

Julien: Welcome back to Fighting Noise, a podcast where we explore innovation, noise pollution and its consequences. Today's guest is CEO and co-founder of Phononic Vibes, an Italian deep tech company turning the science of metamaterials into real-world solutions to block, redirect or dump noise and vibration. From railways to buildings to consumer products, Luca d'Alessandro and his team are proving that sound can be controlled through design. So let's dive into this new frontier where physics meets peace and quiet. Ciao, Luca!

Luca: Ciao! Tutto bene! Very good, thank you very much. How are you?

Julien: I'm fine, thanks a lot. So Luca, we'll ⁓ switch to English directly, that will be the limit of my Italian. Luca, before we get into your company and your journey, what's the most surprising thing people usually misunderstand about noise or about the way we try to stop it? What do think?

Luca: I mean, actually noise ⁓ is perceived by one of our five senses. So we care about what we eat, how we taste, we care about what we see. And sometimes we don't care about what we hear, but it's actually very impactful in our everyday life. Some people get crazy, some people love music. So noise or sound in general, it's so important.

Julien: Mm-hmm. and people don't care enough. So I guess either listening or watching this podcast, meaning that I care a little bit more. But let's start introducing yourself. Look at Alessandro, who are you?

Luca: I am a PhD from Italian Polytechnic and MIT in Boston. So I have a technical background and ⁓ I am also an entrepreneur because since the beginning I wanted to fund the company. And now I'm CEO and co-founder of Phononic Vibes. It's been six years up to now. So not that young, not the new. After five years research period. So it's almost more than 10 years. working on this topic.

Julien: That's great. This topic you mentioned is mostly about metamaterial. So let's start simple and please explain to what's a metamaterial and how does it help block or controls noise and vibration.

Luca: So ⁓ you may see also behind me there are some panels, normal panels or foam panels. Noise is blocked by those special materials. Those special materials have a structure that can absorb noise. What we do with metamaterials is that we give a structure by design to every material, also to plastics, metal, whatever, that can absorb noise thanks to a specific pattern in space, so a periodicity.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: with small dimensions that are replicated in 2D or 3D dimensions. This periodicity can interact with the sound wave, like with scattering or focusing, and then can be as performing as the standard panel or even more performing. So lighter, ⁓ more absorbing. You can basically work with the materials as you like. And meta comes from the Greek, so beyond, beyond material. That's why...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: It's not a simple material, it's an engineered material to deal with noise.

Julien: So you do calculate a perfect shape to change the way sound changes. ⁓

Luca: Yes, perfect. The perfect voxel. It's like in a screen, it's the perfect voxel or pixel. Okay, voxel is the 3D of a pixel. To interact with noise at specific frequency or a specific kind, because of course the noise from a fan is different from the noise of a motor.

Julien: Okay. Okay. So you move, let's come back to you say you are an entrepreneur. you move from research, from your PhD to startups. Why you and what makes you the right person to commercialize this kind of science and this kind of new product?

Luca: So regarding commercialization, I'm still not sure if I'm the right guy, but what I can tell you is that research sometimes stays in the university. ⁓ To put your research into the market is necessary to have some kind of purpose, and I have this purpose, to see practically what I have been studying being applied to real life.

Julien: you Mm-hmm.

Luca: This is something I had as a purpose since I was little. So I need to see things that I study to be applied. Because it's not that they are wasted, basically.

Julien: Why? Okay, your purpose is to see this operationalization of theoretical knowledge. That's how you are and who you are since the beginning. Okay.

Luca: Exactly. Exactly, exactly.

Julien: Okay, that's great. And you decided to, said you have four years of PhD or five years of PhD and then in 2019 you started Phononic Vibes, so turning this science of your PhD and these findings into products.

Luca: Yes.

Julien: Why are you using your product? I said in the introduction in Burling's ⁓ Rail Automotive, what problem are you solving in each use case? What are the use cases and which pain do you solve?

Luca: Actually, we started with infrastructure. thought about dealing mostly with infrastructure because it's a big market and we are still like our first market is railway ⁓ or highway. We work a lot with Deutsche Bahn in Germany, for example, but there was a very, very hard interest from automotive industry or even appliances industries. Of course, it's two different set of noise and two different sets of sounds.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: One thing is big projects, infrastructure and so on. Another thing is to go in the automotive, like in the brakes or in the motor in very detailed analysis on how the sound ⁓ is at the end of the day. So we started with our focus in infrastructure where we do like the most of our business, but the most of our

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: technology breakthrough are then applied to, are then tested in automotive and in appliances because it's much more demanding, much more specific, let's say.

Julien: Okay, and ⁓ you explained me once we met, you explained me you have seven birding blocks to dampen noise in a way, and different kinds of noises. Can you explain why is this strategy of the birding blocks? I guess it's public, it's on your website too, for the curious ones. So why is this strategy of having these birding blocks?

Luca: Yes, yes.

Julien: And how do you play with that to offer a solution at scale?

Luca: So let's say, let's start from, I would say from the beginning. So the other way around, because we understood that there were seven building blocks after a while, after three, four years of research, because we started like with meta materials to be applied to noise solutions. And we started with different markets, as we said, different application, different scales, different type of noises. And then we understood that there was a kind of pattern in the noise source. Of course, some experts that may be listening to this podcast may already know that, but unfortunately we didn't. So the type of noises are fan noise. So it's a combined airflow and noise ⁓ type of source. And then there are ⁓ vibrations like ⁓ in pumps or in motors.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: ⁓ Or there are like noise that comes through structural like in the buildings We see we hear the neighbors because it comes through our floor to our walls So there are different type of noises different type of sources I have mentioned three for example and then there are different solutions to this and let's say that the combination of the different type of sources and a different type of efficient solution lead us to seven building blocks, so whenever we find a problem

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: or an opportunity to reduce noise, we pick this because it's not always a perfect sum of two of them. It's also a little bit of reshaping, but more or less it's seven billion blocks, yes.

Julien: So it's not or not just, you tell me, according to these frequencies, because we mostly speak about low frequencies, for instance, or mid frequencies, higher frequencies, depending on the kind of sounds we want to stop. You describe much more of the use case, how sound is going into the final user.

Luca: You are right, of course. You are right, of course, we can do the same discussion with respect to frequencies. I was more on the use case because it's more, let's say, easy to tell. Of course, one can also define the seven building blocks, and we do, in terms of frequencies. And there is a relationship between the fine noise and the type of frequencies, or the compressor noise and the type of frequencies.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: Sometimes, for example, the fan noise can have a low frequency, very clear, and a high frequency, a more generalized high frequency. So, like, the fan noise can have two frequencies. So, it's a little bit complex, and we can spend some time to understand the sources, the frequencies, and the solutions. But at the end of the day, the noise problem can be divided into these seven solutions, and I would say something like 15 to 20...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: combination of use cases and frequencies that can be solved with this, something like that.

Julien: You've worked with major players. You mentioned Deutsche Bahn in Germany. You worked with more players like this. We mentioned you in the episode where I did interview ⁓ Benno Hacker from the subsidiary of the Deutsche Bahn, ⁓ Deutsche Bahn Bahnbau Gruppe. And we mentioned your Meta-Windows solution implemented around the... railways for the one speaking German and wanting to listen to this episode. What kind of traction or impact have you seen from those corporate collaborations? Because for a lot of startups or scale-ups cooperating with ⁓ major brands, with corporates, it's a logo on a customer list, but in terms of traction, sometimes it takes a lot of time, a lot of resources, and it doesn't allow to scale fast. So, about phononic vibes, are these major players really strategical for you to grow?

Luca: Yes. ⁓ Then it depends. Like with DB, with Benno, with Mr. Hacker, we were lucky, I would say, because there was an alignment of a clear need of the subsidiary of DB you mentioned and our purpose. So this was absolutely clear. There was a missing point in the market, transparent high absorbing walls for railway. And so we started working together with the only one purpose to win the market. Sometimes we find also collaboration with the corporates that is a little bit more on the marketing side. ⁓ But still, it's a budget that we get and we push the technology. Let's say collaboration with big corporates is strategic because we push our limits with them. That's the point. And sometimes we can find

Julien: ⁓ So they allow you to innovate more.

Luca: Yes, the biggest problem comes from the biggest opportunities come from the bigger hopers that have already found and researched around and around and they need a specific solution and we have to be the best one to solve this. Sometimes when this is coupled with a clear need in the market, then we scale fast with them. Sometimes not, it's just for us a very good gym to work.

Julien: Mm-hmm. like the Jim metaphor. ⁓ As I am an investor, an impact investor, I like to ask two questions in parallel. So one about the real impact driven by your solution and the other one on economics. But let's start with extra economics with impact. Do you measure the results of implementing these solutions, for instance with Deutsche Bahn, but with other projects, how do you measure the real impact you have on noise pollution, or the consequences of noise pollution? Because we know out of this podcast, the dramatic consequences on the health and performance. So do you measure in a way the real impact it has?

Luca: Yes, mean, fortunately we work in a regulated environment, so all the major noise problems that have been already defined by the authorities are regulated by law. So both in working environment and both in public spaces, noise is... the people are protected from the strongest possible noise, okay? So...

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: Whenever there is a strong noise like a railway or a big machine in a production plant, by law it must be a solution for noise. So on this, let's say we deliver this type of solution. So we are compliant with the law and we protect the major damages that people can have both on the work environment and in public spaces because they can be damaged for years and then of course health issues. What happens is that there is lack in what is not clearly a damage, okay, and therefore the law does not protect it yet. And what is still a small damage, something that it's more disturbed, but then summed up can create diseases or problems with the concentration, focus and so on. This is something that is not yet measured, is not yet governed by law, and it's where we try to give a matrix and... We always try to not only say how many decibels we have reduced, but also how much we have improved the quality. Unfortunately, strongly depends application for application. So on this, cannot give you a proper answer. I can only tell you that low part is something, but there is still a lack of metrics. We try to communicate it, but it's case by case. We didn't build the seven building blocks on that, let's say.

Julien: Mm-hmm. But it could be interesting because I guess we have... I mean, everyone speaks in decibels, but decibels is not everything. There are the fourth ones following the podcast. ⁓ Psychoacoustics, or sometimes a low volume can be very disturbing and annoying for, let's say, users. ⁓ And if workers, inhabitants, or whatever it is, but still annoying. And the sound, you do expect... being loud is less annoying than another one. So decibel is not the perfect matrix. So I understand that. In terms of regulation, it because you said it, the regulation is not tackling everything at noise. So is it a barrier for adoption of more aggressive solution or is it still an accelerator for your business?

Luca: I would say is an accelerator because like we had the solution that was not in the regulation but there was clearly a benefit like for vibrations but since it was not within the regulation it was very hard for in that case was public entities to adopt it. When you have a regulation and you meet the standards and you can explain that you meet the standards and you are more performing because of this this or that then There is a market and there is an opportunity. If there is no regulation, there is the double difficulty because first you have to ⁓ win ⁓ with performance and so on, so the standard competition. And second, you have to explain why this is scalable somehow because it's not only proof of concept specific, which is so much hard. So for example, we did a couple of proof of concept with our anti-vibration solution.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: ⁓ And then everybody was super happy, but there was no possibility to apply. So we keep applying it with some church, some very old church where there is to protect, let's say the art and culture, but then to scale it unless there is the regulation is not possible.

Julien: Okay, got it. Back to the investor question. I told you I like to have in parallel two kinds of metrics, the impact one and the economics one. So to place phononic vibes in the ecosystem and on the map, can you give me a few figures about the traction of phononic vibes today? I see you as one of the major players on the European meta material market. Can you give us a bit of a few figures?

Luca: Yes, of course. Like I said, we are since six years on the market and let's say that our figures now are more or less around 10 million in revenue. We are doubling or let's say growing by at least 70%, 75 % year over year. If we meet each other in a couple of years, I hope to tell you that we are bigger than now.

Julien: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Luca: Of course, was easier when we were more on the 1 million, half a million to double it, of course, than now. course, so I expect... ⁓ Yes, yes, yes. And instead, in terms of fundraising in general, we have raised approximately 10 million also there. So let's say that Funding Vibes now is in the 10 million zone, where we got 10 million and we are at 10 million in revenue. And from this year, we will be profitable.

Julien: Still 50 % is a great ⁓ growth rate.

Luca: or let's say Break-even, which is also another.

Julien: So you're, yeah, please.

Luca: Now, which is also another important metric because we are doing materials and solutions that are hardware. So scaling only with loss at some point does not make sense because I mean, we have to be profitable in what we sell. That's clear. So of course there is a balance between the growth and the profitability. But from now on, have to keep it. I mean, at least we have to take the decision to lose profitability to grow more.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: But let's say that now sometimes the growth is only an excuse to profitability.

Julien: Totally, and for lot of startups, Alex, where you describe it. So first of all, congrats. mean, you mentioned Break-even this year, and you don't mention in three years like most startups. 10 million. ⁓

Luca: But I did for the three years before I said that this year.

Julien: But you did it, but you did it, it's such a difference because most startups say it every year in two years will be profitable So so you got you got profitability 10 million areas so you are and you speak about ⁓ Kind of doubling every year or 50 to 70 percent this year still great growth rate So for the one listening to this episode and saying I'm not sure ⁓ Solutions against noise are really scalable ⁓ I guess Phononic Vibe is a good example of achieving scalability even with a hardware product which is a bit more difficult always than a software product because it demands a lot of different assets and a lot of R &D. So congratulations on these first things. What are you in, let's say in five years?

Luca: Thank you very much, first of all, and it's a fight every day. In five years, we should be one major player in the European market. The European market is very sensible to noise, so we should be a major player. Let's say we should be able to work in Italy, in Germany, but not only also in other countries at European level. And we have to be the point of reference for every... for the dealing with noise in an efficient way. Because dealing with noise, it's already spread since years. Not always it's efficient. Sometimes it's expensive, sometimes it's long, it takes a long time. It's complex, people don't understand it. We must make it easy. We must make it democratic, let's say. That's the goal at the European level.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: This should be where we would be.

Julien: The ecosystem of Metamaterial is growing fast. I see, as a founder of NoNoise, a lot of different providers. New ones, new ones coming for you, I guess, in a few weeks and months. Also ones having started to a few months or years ago already. But there is a lot of movement, which is a good sign for an ecosystem to be dynamic and healthy. ⁓ But how do you differentiate yourself from this competition? guess your size is already good sign of health. Still, ⁓ what's your mode, of your defensive mode for the future?

Luca: Honestly, on this I don't care, to be honest, because there is so much to do. The metamaterials have the opportunity to make acoustic easy and simple, which is, I mean, the name metamaterial, they are complex structures, but it's the opposite actually. Metamaterials are very efficient, like we can do a car.

Julien: Okay, blue ocean.

Luca: Instead of putting 200 kilograms of acoustic material, we put 120. So we put a much percentage more, less. We make things less heavy. We make things smaller. We make things more economic. So we make acoustic democratic. That's the technology performance of a metamaterial. If we are more people doing that, In more environments, we are focused more on infrastructure, but there is a lot to do like buildings, architecture, open spaces, working spaces, appliances, automotive. Of course, we are doing all of that, but there will be somebody more specific. It's faster that the market understands, how much metamaterial can be effective or in general, how easy to take on noise. For now if you speak to anybody about noise architects or whatever It's a complex stuff. It should change completely. So the more we are the easier it will be the bigger their market will be That's my my thought and it's hard to be let's say alone. We are not alone, but let's say to explain everything It's a little bit at least we are in two in this call. So that's good

Julien: Mm-hmm. We are, I mean, it's educating the market. So you see the competition as a good sign of helping you, supporting you to educate the market. But and I do agree there is place for several competitors here. Get your point. Maybe a last word about Metamaterial. Do you see? Is it AI driven? is the calculation of a shape? It's mathematic, you say it comes out from ⁓ Polytechnico and MIT, so I guess you have a well-connected brain to do some ⁓ theoretical mathematics and to apply this to that space. So is AI an accelerator and maybe a disruptor of acoustic? What do think?

Luca: That's a good point, I'm asking this myself too. To be honest, back at the university there was already somebody working with neural network models, large-scale computing, something that is the basics of AI. Of course you can get some shapes, some optimisation, you can get it in two ways, either by model, so you model it and then you work with the model, or by data, so you have a lot of data and you get the best. There were people, researchers, together with me doing the two ways. We also do the two ways. I cannot say that it's purely AI. It's data-driven, let's say. It's either model-based or data-driven. We do both. To be honest, the most impactful application of AI I see, ⁓ it's more on the company. It's more on the efficiency of like purchasing department and so on. Because at the end of the day, we must be quick in finding the solutions and experience. And every problem is a little bit different, so the experience is a little bit still... We ask ChatGPT the same, so we do in parallel, but we are faster, or mean, more effective up to now. But we are, of course, thinking about that, that's for sure.

Julien: OK, but still looking for the right answers. But I hear as a company, optimizing the productivity and efficiency of the companies is a good thing. I have two more questions about the company, because ⁓ we represented you and went to the studio. But you say co-founders. That would be interesting to know a little bit more about the team. ⁓ and when we mentioned the business model but I would like to dive a little bit more into this. You speak about a scalable model but at the same time in the most answer as you say unfortunately it's a custom solution. So are you setting project modes or do you scale this project mode of setting hardware custom solutions to a scalable startup model ⁓ with the goal of double digit growth. say at least no pressure here, so only double digit or even higher.

Luca: That's a very good question that I've been asking myself since years. One can look for the golden egg or the thing that then scales. I would say if there were something like that, other people would have done it, I would say. ⁓ What is in noise? The most important problem about noise-taking is that it has to be explained, it has to be understood. So we spent a lot of time to understand this problem, and this was absolutely not scalable because we just understood the problem, and then we tried to scale by defining the 7-bit blocks. Now we are testing the 7-bit blocks. That becomes like a few solutions more, combination of them. Of course, when we find a big market, that's easy because that's where you can scale. but it's always somehow project-based because acoustics is everywhere. We look for the bigger markets and so we look for the more standardized solutions to be applied, but we also look to explain the whole problem of noise. And so we have to keep both of the identities while growing. Up to now it was possible to always grow to X even. So growth is the first, of course. So we don't stop.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: to have a project more, we don't stop the growth. Growth must be there. So every project manager, every sales guy, every account manager has to think about both growth and growth is normally where I think things are easier or where we are mostly successful. To be successful, one cannot be successful at every project. Let's say out of 10 projects, you can be successful at one. That's it. Very successful.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: And so this also in terms of scalability means to have a lot of projects. And the other way of being very fast is to have easy solutions. But in easy solution, there is a little bit more competition. And out of 10 projects, I would say that three solutions can be scalable that are easy. So that's the balance we are having. And of course, let's look at where we have to go. We now are around 10 million. We have to reach 50 million. Let's say between 20, 25, I would say that... still can be a project based. you look at companies, generally speaking, companies 25 million are not like huge corporates. They are still project based. Of course, if you ask me when we are 50 or 100 million, how will it be? Of course, it has to be different. We have to have unlocked this, but we are still in the process. I hope I replied.

Julien: And ⁓ your reply, but a follow-up question on that, meaning your growth will be ⁓ possible after the project phase. mean, through what? Through ⁓ acquisitions, through standardization of specific product for specific verticals you want to grow in. ⁓ or be acquired, I say to acquisition, you want to sell at the limit of 50 million you mentioned. What's next?

Luca: So let's say, take for example the example of with the German railway. German railway are huge, they are investing a lot and we have a killer product. So there we have to scale, for example. This is one way of scaling. So find the right market and be there. The other way is to find established companies that are a little bit in difficulty, as you mentioned, and we acquire them and we put our, we phononize them, we put our phononic ingredients in ⁓ their offer.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: And in this way, we take easier the market, we take quicker the market, and it's a win-win because normally some of the established companies have some difficulty to stay in the market because of technological issues or so on. This is a win-win. This is another way to be fast. So we take somebody that has a market and we finalize it together by acquiring that company. So those are the two ways of scaling fast.

Julien: Okay. ⁓ I like ⁓ to see the ambition of Phononic Vibes having your own verb, phononizing startups or phononizing players on the market. Back as a last question about the team, ⁓ how many employees do you have and what's the founding team? Who is behind this, ⁓ except Luca d'Allessandro

Luca: Thank Yes, yes, of course. mean, we are three, at the beginning we three co-founders and we welcomed a couple more during the journey. Stefano and Giovanni are the two other co-founders from the beginning. And generally speaking, the company is around 40, 45 people. And we also have a board, which is quite professional. meaning that in the board I use myself of course as CEO, then everybody is from outside the company. Three investors and three independent advisors that are very renewed in the field, both as entrepreneurs or as consultants from ex-makinsay or from big corporates because ⁓ I want Phanonic to be always challenged.

Julien: Mm-hmm.

Luca: And we all want Phanonic to be always challenged to look for excellence. And that's with the board that is, let's say, looking and shooting at the stars and wanting to have always the perfect excellence. It is imposed also on the team that of course looks for the same. So yeah, that's how it's composed.

Julien: Everyone headquartered in Milano.

Luca: We have two, yes, a quarter is Milano, but then one of the acquisitions we did was based, and is based in Parma. You may know by Parmigiano, I don't know. And so it's a little bit southern than...

Julien: food, food, food,

Luca: Yes, it's 1.5 hours and it's a little bit on the south with respect to Milan.

Julien: And your advisors too, meaning you are a very Italian company now, because you speak about German railway company Deutsche Bahn, you speak about growing or expanding into Europe, but right now it's a very Italian-focused company, So how do you get it, in Italy and Germany, so how do you get it to grow into Europe?

Luca: Italy and Germany. That's a very good question. That's a very good question because we have to find somebody that wants to simplify the noise problem, to be at the edge of technology and to help us enter in this market. ⁓ We find this in Germany, we were lucky, and we are looking for somebody in France for example, somebody in Spain.

Julien: Humanly speaking.

Luca: It's not easy. So hopefully this podcast can help us by finding a champion.

Julien: Okay, thanks for the transition to the last question. It's what can the listeners or watchers of this podcast episode do for you? Meaning that it was a call for champions, for ⁓ late founder country managers for opening these two markets. That's what you're looking for, what would be the most helpful to you. ⁓

Luca: Yes. This is something and then if you have any other, let's say, issues with noise that you always thought, no, come on, this is too complex to deal with. I will never find somebody to list to me. Just drop us an email because we want to understand where are the most opportunities, let's say.

Julien: Okay, that's great. what can I do for ⁓ the listeners and the watchers? Meaning you will work on ⁓ the noise issue. That's already a good help and a good support because I guess most of our... listeners have some issues with noise or a strong interest in noise and noise pollution. Luca D'Alessandro, co-founder and CEO of Phononic Vibes. I know that kind of thing that can go into depth when we speak about technology or innovation. I always try to keep a set limit so we could go deeper, I guess. It was understandable for everyone, so thanks for vulgarizing this for everyone. At the same time, it was good to better understand phononic vibes. And success, I would say, the first success of phononic vibes is good to that kind of course on the no noise market ⁓ or anti-noise market. That's great. I give you the... Final word of this episode. Do you want to add something in this episode?

Luca: I just want to thank you. think what you doing is very useful because noise has to be explained at the end of the day. Noise, sound, music, what are those relationships? It's so beautiful and it has to be explained, so thank you very much.

Julien: Thank you, Grazie Miele, and for the one listening or watching to this episode, please share this episode with your community, with your colleagues. Don't hesitate to give us a review. It's really helpful to better understand how to optimize this podcast as well, maybe who to invite as next guest, what do you think about the last guest we have. So please. make it a collective effort because you're right Luca, we need to ⁓ speak more about this. So we need to be ⁓ in a collective effort. So thanks in advance for liking, sharing, commenting this episode or our publication on LinkedIn or post on LinkedIn. Thanks a lot and see you very soon.